On Feb 4, 11:14=A0am, "steve" wrote:
> On =A03-Feb-2010, moviePig wrote:
>
> > No, pragmatism as an approach to achieving goals doesn't specify
> > them. =A0I don't recall me or anyone saying otherwise.
>
> I just did a quick google in this NG and I think you have a point. =A0We =
have
> had some tension over what constitutes ideology vs pragmatism, and what
> roles the two play, but the position you seem to come to is consistent wi=
th
> what you say above. =A0It's the difficulty in coming to that conclusion t=
hat I
> recall and now refer to. =A0So...it looks like Im at least partly wrong o=
n
> this point. =A0I would apologize, but I think the matter is still somewha=
t in
> doubt given my difficulty in pinning down your meaning. =A0If I pull your
> teeth long enough, I get a fragment of tooth now and then.
>
> > Others can defend Obama more topically than I (...and still others, no
> > doubt, can attack him better than Goldberg). =A0So, I'll address
> > (briefly) only 'pre-existing conditions' as the litmus-test you
> > propose for hard-leftedness:
>
> Not quite a litmus test, but certainly an indicator. =A0I rely on the ful=
l
> range of evidence, the PECs being just one factor.
>
> > The PEC issue devolves to, afaics, the
> > simple question of whether our society wishes there to be a "floor" of
> > care-level for its citizens. =A0One end of our political spectrum calls
> > this "human rights", and paints tears... whereas the other end calls
> > it "socialism", and brandishes crucifixes. =A0But the pragmatist simply
> > observes that (hopefully) we'd all elect to provide such a floor, *if*
> > we could but afford to.
>
> And my doubts mentioned above come rushing back. =A0That is a value judge=
ment,
> not a means to an end. =A0That makes it idelogical and not pragmatic. =A0=
You
> seem to be using slight of hand by claiming that the pragmatist is simply
> observing the value judgement and using his pragmatism to solve the probl=
em.
> =A0But crediting the value judgement observed as worthy of consideration =
and
> solution is itself a value judgement. Personally, I observe that many peo=
ple
> want us all to be our brothers keeper, but I do not agree with thier valu=
e
> judgement and would take no steps to implement thier vision. =A0I reject =
thier
> ideology, therefore I take no pragmatic steps in its furtherance.
>
> > Now, you presumably think Obama believes that
> > we *must* afford to, come hell or high water ...and, if you were
> > correct, then that would indeed make him a hard-left ideologue.
>
> The bar for ideology isnt quite so high as "*must* afford to, come hell o=
r
> high water". =A0A simple claim that we should do it is sufficient, becaus=
e
> that is a value judgement and inherently ideological. =A0And if PEC cover=
age
> was BHOs only lefty inclination, I would not conclude he was "hard" left.
> It's just a telling peice of the puzzle.
>
> > And, even in the current predictable frenzy of
> > post-honeymoon disenchantment, I haven't heard 'stupid' bandied by
> > anyone not plainly incompetent to choose more than tonight's
> > channel...
>
> "Insane" is the charge me and my friends throw about. =A0We truly believe=
BHO
> is left off the deep end. =A0We find him neither brilliant nor stupid (th=
ough
> he has been publically stupid on several occasions), but we do find him
> incompetent (luckily) on many fronts.
Yes, there is the presumption here that, if universal health care were
(say) free, that the vast majority of any nation's citizens would not
choose to withhold it. (Iirc, such species-wide good will is
evidenced among most primates and many mammals.)
And, yes, there's the further presumption that, in comparison,
concerns about 'coercion' are merely secondary, even for those who
have them ...and that such concerns arise mainly in response to
unavoidable negative aspects of human nature that flourish especially
in the presence of government and bureaucracy.
So, in other words, you don't wish your fellow man to starve (...a
sentiment I grant you even though you disown it). But you abhor his
demands that you feed him. It's a toughie...
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
|